Curse

kvndoom · Jun 16, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

We should probably be thankful that Anet didn't stick to its "new campaign every 6 months" promise. By now we'd have 6 more new classes on top of what we have now. At least 4 of those would likely be melee. And probably at least twice as many total skills among all classes. The mess we have now would be nothing compared to those circumstances.

Snow Bunny · Jun 16, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I really would like to see the Dervish as more of a self-supportive split character.

As they are now, they're shitgimmick spikers who blow up teams with AoE crits.

i really enjoyed the old YAA! Warrior template, and while it's very different than a self-healing dervish, I like the concept of the splittable melee that can hold its own.

In the same manner how the Ranger is an excellent skirmish character, I'd like to see the Dervish there too. The ele can fit that role vaguely, though interrupts hurt pretty bad in addition to ranger anti-ele armor.

The assassin has no place in guild wars, but weapon spells could have been better. If they made them enchantments, I believe that to an extent they'd be a lot less broken.

Paragons are just ehhhh.

Jesses Paradigm · Jun 16, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

What purpose can the dervish be changed to be in this game? The original idea of enchantment cycling is made to fail, Avatars just make them imbamachines for 50% of the time, and Wounding Strike is a spammable deep wound on a 3s timer with a cover condition.

We already had the warrior as a balanced class with 3 different weapons which all had at least a decent balance between them and had different playstyles, then Anet decided we needed another melee profession with nightfall. Why? I can't think of a good melee role that wasn't already being played by the warrior. I CAN think of a few imbalanced/degenerate roles, which is the way the dervish has gone.

The dervish needs a complete overhaul, a good place to start would be reducing maximum scythe damage a lot, maybe 9-41 to 16-30ish. This makes it less random while greatly reducing the omgwtfcriticalhit damage.
(offtopic) Paragons could use the same change, 14-27 to 12-22ish. Spears are just as imbalanced.

i don't really see a problem with there spear damage, they're usually midliners or back line as support, so it really just kinda makes there spear worthless except for adren gain

Tyla · Jun 16, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

For a midline character, it deals quite alot of damage. At range, it deals substantial DPS and decent support.

I agree with his suggestion myself.

The Meth · Jun 17, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesses Paradigm

i don't really see a problem with there spear damage, they're usually midliners or back line as support, so it really just kinda makes there spear worthless except for adren gain

Spears do more dps then swords and about the same as axes (forgive me for not giving exact numbers, I don't feel like going through all the math at the moment). They also have an IAS that is up FOREVER, and their damage can't be mitigated through kiting (which is a huge damage reducer, go into PvP and find a monk who just stands their and tanks the warrior and I'll show you a stupid player.) Not to mention that when the warrior's target gets a skill like Guardian or Spirit Bond, the warrior has to run to another target to continue dealing damage. The paragon just switches targets. This flies in the face of the idea of active protection (which is good) and forces teams to rely on layers of passive defence (which is bad). If you see a spear doing little damage you are up against a noob who thinks paragons are supposed to put everything into defensive shouts and chants and leave spear mastery as the dump stat.

Spears are imba.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 17, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Spears do more dps then swords and about the same as axes (forgive me for not giving exact numbers, I don't feel like going through all the math at the moment). They also have an IAS that is up FOREVER, and their damage can't be mitigated through kiting

Yeah it can, learn to kite noob.

Krill · Jun 17, 2008, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Strafing will dodge quite a few spears, a lot of spear chuckers are lazy and don't even bother positioning.

JR · Jun 17, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Kiting is more effective against spears than it is against any melee weapon. If you kite well (click to move) they wont touch you, whereas a Warrior in Rush is going to be hitting you, landing Bull's, and generally still pumping out some decent DPS.

The Meth · Jun 17, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

But the paragon isn't just throwing at a random person, they are often pressuring at the same targets the melee is putting damage on. Granted, saying it can't be reduced at all was wrong, but someone show me kiting both at the same time effectively please. Not to mention if the target is able to kite like a madman, the instant switching of targets comes into play. And you can easily switch to someone at a closer range, good luck kiting it at half range.

In any case, even if you can argue against my points, I think it is unarguable that the paragon promotes unskillful play (mindless pressure hoping your spear hits and using party wide shouts on recharge) while the other physical sources except sin have some redeeming qualities.

Kaon · Jun 17, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

We should probably be thankful that Anet didn't stick to its "new campaign every 6 months" promise. By now we'd have 6 more new classes on top of what we have now. At least 4 of those would likely be melee. And probably at least twice as many total skills among all classes. The mess we have now would be nothing compared to those circumstances.

We should also be thankful that the earth didn't blow up yet, or that I didn't die yet. There's so much to be thankful for.

Owait, perhaps we just need to be realistic, and realistically izzy is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing terrible at his job and he needs to be fired or die.

kvndoom · Jun 17, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

We should also be thankful that the earth didn't blow up yet, or that I didn't die yet. There's so much to be thankful for.

Owait, perhaps we just need to be realistic, and realistically izzy is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing terrible at his job and he needs to be fired or die.

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you; the game is in a shitty state, and has been for almost 2 years. I'm only saying just how much worse it would be if Anet had stuck to their "grand vision." The whole "thankful" thing was extreme sarcasm.

Legendary Shiz · Jun 17, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

When I first heard about Dervishes, here is what I wanted from the class.

I wanted them to basically be what smite monks never were. Big AoE damage via enchantments, and powerful attack buffs (to put on warriors), with average healing ability.

If they had been given a different weapon than scythes, and been like I had described they would have been the ultimate flag runner.

Instead now they just make multiple targets blow up simultaneously with their scythes, and all those different AoE damage enchants never see the light of day.

Snow Bunny · Jun 17, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

the ultimate flag runner.

This is pretty much what I was hoping for.

xhappy feetx · Jun 17, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Paragons are hard to balance because they really introduced a new role into the team dynamic, a defensively positioned player who provides close to the DPS of a third frontliner in perma-frenzy while still being able to spec into 3-4 defensive/utility skills whether they be party healing, interrupts, or enchantment removal, sometimes all on the same bar, nothing like that had really ever been seen before, and they were/still are to some extent really overpowered.

xhappy feetx · Jun 17, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Big AoE damage, and powerful attack buffs (to put on warriors), with average healing ability.

ohaider Shiz,

So you are describing the meta rit bar for the past 8 months?

TheHaxor · Jun 17, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS DERV WARS

All the expansion classes were poorly designed. It's that simple. There is no use bitching about it at this point because it isn't going to change because they would have to completely rebuild the classes.

pah01 · Jun 18, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Owait, perhaps we just need to be realistic, and realistically izzy is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing terrible at his job and he needs to be fired or die.

If izzy was good would it matter? [for anyone questioning kaon see recent buff to symbolic strike - cant get better thna- that]

I wonder if this desire that every class be viable in PVP and especially GVG is handed isnt handed down from mr o brien et al and the senior designers. Not just izzy

Joe

The Meth · Jun 18, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

There isn't anything strictly preventing the expansion classes from being a good balanced addition to the game, but their skills have to go through a big overhaul to shift the usage of the profession. Right now Rit's aren't too terribly balanced, by far the closest to a working expansion profession. If izzy would stop screwing around trying to promote random gimmicks and started making more significant changes every week or two we could see some progress.

Riotgear · Jun 18, 2008, 03:47 AM // 03:47

You need to run a LOT of enchant removal to clean up the massive stack Dervsmite brings and running that much is going to gimp the shit out of you against anything else.

Build Wars sucks. Massing enchant removal isn't really the way to spec it either, hexes and shutting down the signet mesmers (which coincidentally is easier in a hex build) is.

erk · Jun 18, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

The enchant stack also makes Windwalker insgnias give the Dervish +20 armor, pumps Mystic Regen. heal, and Mystic Sweep damage to the max.

When I suggested reducing the recharge on Rend Enchantments to cope with more than one Dervish, people cried it would be used in spikes below 50% and left their thinking at that. I see the multiple Dervish's with enchant stacks as a more real world problem then finishing off bad spikes. Having to carry both Gaze and Rend is a hassle.